The hours took life for true
Just took life for a trick
Welcome to Duality Check, the podcast where two brothers embark on a thrilling journey
through the realms of scientific inquiry, the mysteries of the past, and the uncharted realms
of spirituality. Join us as we explore the wonders of our world and beyond, all while embracing
the roles of curious bystanders. Together we'll unravel the tapestry of existence, blending
the dichotomies of knowledge and wonder. Get ready to question, ponder, and explore. delve
into the dualities that shape our understanding of reality on Duality Check. I'm Drew. And
I'm Dean. And welcome back for part three. Yeah. Long time no see, brother. Yeah, been, uh,
20, 20 hours. Yeah. Twenty, 22 hours. So yeah, we're recording this the next day. Yeah, Drew's
a awake for now. Hopefully we can keep him this time Yeah, I didn't sleep much work full eight
hours took care of some kids, but I'm here and I'm ready heck. Yeah. Yeah, I want to get some
Reincarnation stories I Was talking to John a little bit about him today. He was interested.
He said he would listen to the first episode Yeah, what do you say the most recent one?
Just that it's super fascinating and the stories are hard to debunk them. Yeah. I mean, obviously,
doing the research on your own is the way to know for sure that at least the information
we're talking about is true. But as far as the sources and the information and all that, but
the stories. I mean, no one expects everyone to be an expert on the case files. Right. But.
When you hear somebody who's spent their life doing the work, at least even a large portion
of their lives. If you're skeptical of it, there's lots of evidence to comb through to see if
you can be convinced. Swade, yeah. Yeah. And? I keep going back to the Dorothy Eady one.
I was talking to them, to mom and John about it today. Mm-hmm. It's super. I mean, it's
like 3,000 years. She had going on to live a life that was like. Yeah. And if you don't
believe every aspect of her story, which I don't think I believe every aspect of the story that
she tells, but because all the information of her story is from her. Even if you don't directly
believe in that reincarnation story, having it be 3000, the previous personality, like
we were talking about, being a 3000 year old Egyptian priestess or whatever. She has a lot
of information that somebody only of that time would really like know because she came to
Egypt eventually and had all this information. Yeah. Was able to recall areas of the temple
that they were excavating and they found exactly what she was talking about.
Yeah. I don't know how to debunk that. I recall as part of the story, he had said that she
wrote like a journal or a book or something about it, right? I can't remember that part
of it actually, but if she did I want to find it and I'll read it I would love to find that
because I wonder what kind of like nonchalant kind of like little information She would have
like yeah Cuz like day-to-day stuff of a person of her day the day-to-day things the little
things They're really fascinating humanizing things that like really bring them to the level
of us, you know Knowing that they're kind of the same and they're diddy. But also like Has
she expressed her? um view or understanding or lack thereof of like how the pyramids were
built, right? She's passed now, but yeah, if she did write it down that'd be fascinating,
right? I mean It seems like from the story of her life being the daughter of um Being the
daughter of a soldier and the daughter of, in Egyptian times, the previous personality, being
the daughter of a soldier and her mother, I think, I can't remember exactly what she did,
but she was somebody local who just did a local job. And she passed away and her father couldn't
take care of her. So he gave, he left. His daughter, I can't remember her name, I gotta look it
up. With the temple or something, right? Yeah, with the temple of Seti, that was where she
was brought up to be. She was raised to be a priestess in the temple after her father gave
her up to them. And then she had the choice when she turned like 16 or something to stay
or to go off on her own and be completely on her own. And she could live her own life. away
from the temple or she could stay and be
a priestess. And she would have to sacrifice certain things and whatnot. Right. But yeah,
I mean, all those details, I would be very interested to see if she's written a book or even a journal,
something like that, to find out if she's given any other details. Yeah, I want to know what
did they eat? What were their recipes? What was an average life like there? Do they have
the same basic elements of schooling and work and family and, you know, like just? Same like
schedule set. Obviously, they're humans. They're going to have all that stuff. But what's their?
What's the schedule look like for them? What's their version of all that? Yeah, like do you
work all day and you know, honestly, do you have like time for leisure? What does she know
about all this stuff? Like all the like because if the ancient civilization theory is true,
then what she what they should know back in ancient Egypt should be that some of the stuff
was already there. Right, at least knowing that would help. Give us an idea. Their civilization
was inspired on what they found there. Or it was just a descendant, a long-remained descendant.
But it could also be that someone took credit for it who didn't actually build it. And maybe
they made everybody believe that they did it. But I'd be interested to know if she's ever
said anything about those topics. So I'm going to look into that some more. So should we get
back to the book here? Yeah, we don't have much correspondence considering it's been one day.
Yeah. Yeah, let's get into it. OK, cool. So if you recall, we left off going over multiple
of the birth mark cases. And then we've been going through his commentary on the birth mark
cases. So he's got a little bit more to say about that. OK.
So he's saying, when we look into the cases in which the subject's family had never heard
of the previous personality, a normal explanation gets even tougher. Indika Ishwara and Pranima
Ekayaneyake not only had birthmarks, but they made numerous statements about strangers who
died in a long distance away. The statements proved to be accurate for a specific deceased
individual who had a lesion that corresponded to the child's birthmark. We can again fall
back on coincidence as a way to explain the birthmarks, but then we have to explain the
statements as well. Coincidence can only go so far. And in a case like Pernima's in which
she made 20 statements about the previous personality that included details about an incense maker
being killed on a bicycle and in which she had even named the correct brands of incense. Ones
that were not available locally. Right. Coincidence is really out. Yeah. Coincidence is really
not a realistic explanation. In such a case, we might try to use coincidence to explain
the birthmark while using another explanation for the accuracy of the statements. Knowledge
acquired through normal means can be an explanation if the previous personality lived in the same
community as the child, but it seems quite inadequate to explain the statements in a case such as
Pernima's where the previous personality lived 145 miles from the subject's home. Another
way to explain the statements is to blame faulty memory by the informants. In this explanation,
Pernima and children like her did not really make the statements as they are credited with
making. We do not have to say that their accuracy is an incredible coincidence because we do
not give the children credit for the statements in the first place.
birthmarks and previous personalities who lived a significant distance away, we can say that
birthmarks occur by a strange coincidence and that the statements are remembered incorrectly.
No other normal explanation really makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, that doesn't make sense. I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of cases that people
can point to where there's a lot of coincidences or like hoaxes even. Or someone wanting attention
or someone like. Yeah, yeah. That's all it really takes is we're all human and there's gonna
be people who see these kinds of stories or see the attention you might get from it. So
they're going to come up with something and they're going to, I have a birthmark and I
have a story. It's like, right. But when you get the actual statements from the children
and themselves, the chances of someone doing it knowingly and then just having the birthmarks,
like what? What are the chances of that? Right.
are not great. Yeah.
I mean, if you were a con artist, maybe you could... If your child had a unique birthmark,
you could... Look up public records. If you somehow had access to autopsy reports or something.
I think a lot of them are public records. Yeah. If you could find one that would match it,
like you're constantly waiting for one that will. And when you see it, you secretly go
and gather all the details and then you say that your child said those things even if they
didn't. Right, yeah, you wait until your child's a little bit older to when you can justifiably
be like, oh, well, they don't remember anymore, but they did make these statements. And then
you... you know, match up their birthmark. It's just far-fetched. That's why there's only 2,500
accounts, though, is because they seem like they were like, there was some that they were
just like, doesn't qualify. Yeah. Right? Right. Even though they have some of the, they don't
qualify enough. 2,500 is the number that, yeah, they held up to a certain level of evidence.
Yeah. And that they had the time and the manpower to investigate. Right. Yeah, they only took
the best of the best as far as the stories go. Right, but they don't have unlimited resources
for traveling and interviewing in every country, everywhere. Yeah, we need a massive team for
this because that'd be fascinating to know. If we can confirm that reincarnation is real
by putting together a massive global team of people going out to research and follow up
and interview people who have made these claims. We could probably figure it out. I feel like
that can kind of happen naturally on the internet. And it may already be happening somewhere.
It might be. Hey, if anybody's hearing this and they're a part of some kind of group doing
this, let us know. We want to know. Some kind of massive research group. Like a move on or
something for reincarnation. Yep. If not, we'll form one. Probably not. It's a big claim. All
right. Speaking of move on, you bought the, we were talking about it yesterday, you bought
the tickets for the Cosmic Summit. Oh yeah. Coming up. For the live stream. The live stream.
The playback. So, unfortunately we can't make it out there. Yeah, but we want to in the future.
Make it to one of these events, and anybody who's listening that hasn't heard of the Cosmic
Summit, it's gonna be a... a bunch of people that we've talked about, a bunch of people
that we haven't talked about yet and a lot of fascinating speakers. I'll leave a photo of
the speakers and a link to the Cosmic Summit. Yeah, if you want to buy tickets and check
it out. But even if you can't go, you can buy the streaming. And I believe they take chat
questions to the panelists and stuff up there through the live stream chat. That's cool.
more things that came out of COVID, live streaming events. Right. Yeah. Not that it's like a new
thing, but they live stream everything on TV. The live events are cool, man. I really do
want to get back out, because the last time I went to, I met the brothers as a certain
thing before I even knew who they were. Oh, really? We just started talking about the talks
in there, and about a lot.
I knew you hung out with him. I thought you had known him. I had just read the Immortality
Key by Brian Murrescu. Yeah. That's how I was talking about all that stuff that was in that
book. They hadn't read it yet, so we had a good conversation. Oh, that's cool. It was fun.
Yeah. You saw Russ and Kyle? Yeah, and then what's his face? Organizer of the Cosmic Summit.
Cosmic Tusk website. Oh yeah. I don't know who they are.
I feel stupid for my mind going blank on this one.
George Howard.
He's been intermittently involved with the comic research group. Yeah, he was. I have to watch
that one. And he also went on that episode where Randall and.
the Tesla tech guy were supposed to go on Jarro Rogan and they had the episode that never released.
Oh, you're talking about, um, when Randall Carlson had them on, and they had that whole conversation,
they ended up not releasing it. Oh, okay. Did they actually have the, but George Howard was
on that one. Oh, really? Unfortunately, they didn't release that one. I wonder if they will
eventually. Anyway, George Howard's dope.
to. OK, let's go on to the next chapter here. Derailed us a bit, but please go check out
the Cosmic Summit. Yeah. Support them. There's no affiliate links here. We just want people
to get involved and get the information. All right. Sujith Jayaratne. A boy from a suburb
of the Sri Lankan capital, Colombo, began showing an intense fear of trucks and even the word
lorry, a British word for truck, that has become part of the Sinhalese language. When he was
only eight months old, when he became old enough to talk, he said that he had lived in Gorakana,
a village seven miles away, and that he had died after being hit by a truck. He made numerous
statements about that life. His great uncle, a monk at the nearby temple, heard some of
them and mentioned Sujith to a younger monk at the temple. The story interested this monk,
so he talked with Sujith, who was a little more than two and a half years old at the time,
about his memories, and then wrote up notes of the conversations before he attempted to
verify any of the statements. His notes document that Sujith said that he was from Gora Kana
and lived in the section of Gora Kawate and that his father was named Jamis and that he
had a bad right eye. That he had attended the Kabbal Iskole, which meant dilapidated school.
and that he had a teacher named Francis there, and that he gave money to a woman named Kusuma,
who prepared string hoppers, a type of food for him. He implied that he gave money to the
Kale Pansala, or forest temple. He said two monks were there, one of whom was named Amitha.
He said that his house was whitewashed, that it- lavatory was beside a fence and that he
was bathed in cool water. Sujith also told his mother and grandmother a number of other things
about the previous life that no one wrote down until after the previous personality had been
identified. He said his name was Sammy and he sometimes called himself Gorakana Sammy. Kusuma,
the woman he had mentioned to the monk, was his younger sister's daughter and she lived
in Gorakana and had long thick hair. He said that his wife's name was Maggie, and that their
daughter's name was Non-Donnie. He had worked for the railways, and had once climbed Adams
Peak, a high mountain in central Sri Lanka. He transported Arak, a liquor that was illegally
traded, in a boat that had once capsized, causing him to lose his entire shipment of Arak. He
said that On one day, that on the day he died, he and Maggie had quarreled. She left the house
and he went out to the store while he was crossing the road, a truck ran over him and he died.
The young monk went to Gorakana to look for a family who had a deceased member whose life
matched Sujith's statements. After some effort, he discovered that a 50 year old man named
Sammy Gorakana Sammy, as he was sometimes called, had died after being hit by a truck six months
before Sujith was born. All of Sujith's statements proved to be correct for Sammy Fernando, except
for a statement that Haya died immediately when the truck hit him. Sammy Fernando died one
to two hours after being admitted to a hospital following the incident. Yeah, I mean his consciousness
probably was... or he probably in some kind of comatose state, whether he's actually in
a coma or... Right. Just so injured that his consciousness was detached from what was going
on physically anymore, that he just assumed he had died. Right, right. Yeah, he must've
just got knocked out of his body or something, you know? Yeah. So it would make sense if his
memory is he got hit by the drug and died. Like you go into the hospital, you're just unconscious,
getting worked on. And sure, you might have a little bit. I lived an hour, but an hour
is not very long when you're, when you're unconscious and already fatally wounded. It's interesting.
Yeah. I imagine. Okay. So that was the only thing they said that was not right that he
said.
Once Sammy Fernando was identified as the previous personality, Sujith was able to recognize several
people from Sammy's life and to comment on changes that have been made in the Fernando property.
He made many recognitions when no witnesses outside the two families were present, but
the monk heard him give the name of Sammy Fernando's nephew. Dr. Stevenson interviewed witnesses
a year after Sammy Fernando had first been identified as the previous personality. He interviewed
35 people as part of his investigation of the case, including Sujith, who was still talking
about the previous life at the age of three and a half. Dr. Stevenson discovered that though
Sujith and Sammy's families had not known each other before the case developed, Two people
in Sujith's neighborhood had connections to Sammy Fernando. Sujith's family knew one of
them, a former drinking buddy of Sammy's, slightly, and the other one Sammy's younger sister, not
at all. The family had no idea who Sujith was talking about until the monk went to Gorakana.
In fact, neither Sujith's mother nor the monk had heard of Gorakana before the case developed
as it was a Fairly small village some distance away from the Colombo area Sue just displayed
other behaviors along with the phobia of trucks that were consistent with Sammy Fernando's
life He would pretend to drink airac and then he would act drunk He also attempted to get
airac from neighbors including one who obliged him until his grandmother intervened In addition,
he tried to smoke cigarettes No one's family drank, air-acked, or smoked cigarettes, but
Sammy Fernando consumed plenty of both. That's the previous personality's life? Mm-hmm. Or
is that the, that's the very first? Yeah, Sammy Fernando, that's the previous personality.
So he was a smoker and a drinker. Even though nobody else was? Well, no. The previous personality
was a smoker and a drinker. And then Sujith, the boy. Ah, I see. No one in his family smoked
or drank. I see. He wanted to. But he wanted to. Interesting. And he would pretend to drink
ARAC and act drunk.
He was born six months after the other guy died. So that's pretty soon after. Wow. So you would
think that, yeah, he would. And it's how long. So I know the story is going to continue. But
how long does he continue to talk about this? I wonder. I don't know yet. You might tell
us. Suchith.
also asked for spicy foods Sammy Fernando frequently enjoyed once his family who only ate them occasionally
Would not normally have considered giving to a small child in Addition he had a tendency
as a toddler to be physically aggressive and to use obscenities habits that Sammy Fernando
had demonstrated when he was intoxicated. By the time Sujith was six years old, he had stopped
talking about Sammy Fernando's life and displayed less of the unusual behavior that he had shown
earlier. He still continued to ask for Eric if he saw others drinking it. Can't kick it.
Yeah. Damn. So it had been... He was two and a half when they first started hearing about
it. He first started talking about it. And he stopped when he was six. So that's four and
a half years or three and a half years. Yeah. That's a long time. It is.
Asking for air, act the whole time, act drunk when he doesn't have it, smoking. Yeah. So,
this one's kind of pointing out that there are connections between the two families that kind
of could have been made, but it just seems unlikely. Yeah, I mean... They were all so far apart
from each other and didn't directly know each other. Yeah, I mean, unless there was some
kind of crossover in the families, like one of the family members, you know, married into
it or had a friend of the other, you know, and then they just become friends or whatever.
Did he have any birthmarks? Uh, I don't think they mention birthmarks in this one. Okay.
There was no like road rash on his arm, tire marks. No, no. But there was the fear of cars.
Oh yeah, that's right. And trucks, I mean. Yeah. And lorries. Loss, loss, lorries. Interesting.
Yeah.
These are good cases, man. Yeah, definitely gets you thinking about it. Most of them are
pretty convincing to me. I understand that not all of them necessarily have to be. Any one
of these could be some other explanation. That doesn't mean they all are. Right. Just the
numbers, the quality, the numbers of coincidences, the difficulty of using other explanations,
the need to pull from multiple explanations versus the one simple one, you know.
I just want one of these stories. I know he's kind of ramping up with his stories, but I
want to hear one that has a little more information about the in-between times. Yeah, yeah. He
gets into those in a couple chapters, I think. OK. Does he got another? What's the next one?
Is there another story, or is he? Yeah. Well, there's some comments here. Yeah, I was going
to. OK. But let's get our first break in. Oh, we're on our break. Oh, yeah. And just.
Alright, we'll be right back. See you in the past... of the future.
Yo!
This song.
Alright, so continuing on. Let's do it.
Sujith's case is also typical in that he stopped talking about the previous life by the time
he was 6 years old. Most of the children stop by the age of 6 or 7. And not only do they
stop talking about the previous life, they often deny any memories of it when asked. We might
wonder why this would be. One possibility is that since this is the age when children generally
start school, they may get more fully involved in this life and let their other memories go.
More importantly, perhaps, this is the age when all children lose most of their early childhood
memories. A toddler can know a family friend, but if that friend moves away, the child will
often have no memory of the person by the age of six or seven. Yeah. This has been called
early childhood amnesia. And though the reasons for it may be debatable, the phenomenon unquestionably
occurs. Yeah. We would logically expect children with apparent past life memories to lose those
memories at the same age. Otherwise, we would wonder how children would keep memories older
than the ones they had lost. Right? Because their past life. Memories should be older and
even harder to access than... Yeah. It's almost like if there was an architect to all this
reincarnation and life and everything, like that it's kind of a built-in mechanism to...
Even though reincarnation is real, to not muddy the water of each individual life by like remembering
each... life from past. Like, imagine like having all of the pressures of your life, of all your
previous lives on top of what you are already living with, you know? Like, not even just
the pressures, but all the memories and all of the, like it would be hard to remember everything
and like yearn for it, especially for loved ones and all these things. Like that would
be difficult. So it's almost like the whole early childhood amnesia thing and losing your
early childhood memories. It's kind of like a way for the mind to start new. Right. And
maybe the. the soul or whatever is, you know, choosing to remember or to not remember. Right,
yeah. And maybe it's kind of the whole point of starting a new life is that you do, it's
a new life. And maybe, yeah, maybe it's a journey to, for your soul to get to that point, because
sometimes like Dorothy Eady, never let go of it, her whole life. Right. Chasing it and going
after it, so. her soul had something to accomplish clearly. And it didn't want to forget the previous
life, even though it was 3,000 years ago. Can you imagine? What went on in between that for
that to happen, to come back 3,000 years later and still want to finish something that happened
then? I don't know. I guess time is irrelevant when you get to these kind of topics. Right.
Like, who knows how it feels to spend 3,000 years in the afterlife. Yeah, I mean, especially...
So maybe it doesn't feel like anything at all. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, maybe Trulia is just
kind of a blackout state and you wait till the curtains open again for your new life. I mean,
that doesn't necessarily, like, mesh with the near-death experiences. Right. Stuff like that,
but... You know what mom brought up to me today? She brought up that we should look into, in
the course of doing this reincarnation stuff, is past life regressions. And the study of
those and how people can be hypnotized. And one of our aunts does that, does past life
regressions. Might be interesting to have her on. That would be cool. Or have her write it
in something that we can respond to it or something, you know? Yeah. But having her on would be
cool. Yeah. Talk to her about it. Yeah. Let's see if she would want to. Um, alright. We would
logically expect children with apparent past life memories to lose those memories at the
same age, otherwise we'd wonder how they would keep memories older than the ones they lost.
The children vary, and some subjects report that they still have past life memories even
into adulthood, just as some individuals report having a fair number of early childhood memories
when they're adults. The vast majority of subjects seem to have forgotten all about the past life
after a few years. Among 300 cases across different cultures, the median age at which the subjects
stopped talking about the previous life was 72 months, or six years. But that age varied
quite a bit among different subjects. In particular, the subjects of Solved cases tend to keep the
memories longer than those of unsolved ones. Presumably visits between the families reinforce
them.
Yeah, so almost their pursuit of finding out more and more and more about their previous
life makes them hold on to that memory even longer. With Dorothy, she just was fixated
and she continued to study Egypt and learn hieroglyphics and do all these things to keep remembering.
She even told her mom when she was going through a book about Egypt, I'm trying to remember,
straight up I'm trying to remember more and more. That could have been what triggered her
to like, lifetime.
Interesting. Yeah It's hard to know the difference between like are you dreaming or fantasizing
something or are you remembering? so like in the case of like Regressions I would have a
hard time Judging for myself whether You know like sometimes you're not even sure where it
comes from, you know Anyway, so that's why the, like he addresses that in this too. Like that's
kind of his commentary. And he says, that's why when in the study of reincarnation, they
typically focus on these early childhood cases, um, because a lot of them can be verified.
Whereas there's no verification of the difference between like. Yeah. that we talked about, but
for regressions, you don't have that same ability to check all the facts necessarily. Yeah, true.
I mean. Depending on how far back it is. Right, right. Yeah, I mean the thing that confirmed
Dorothy Eady's stuff in a sense, like there was nothing that specifically confirmed her
stuff, but it's just the amount of knowledge she had of the area and all the things she
was able to recall. I wonder. Because he doesn't address this. I wonder if someone else has
a book on this topic where like four regressions, if anyone's ever used it to like expand a past
life memory like for these children. And if they were able to pull extra details that were
verifiable. But the problem with that is if the case is already solved by the time you're
looking into it, then you have to do it. no way to verify that it isn't something that
they've learned since. Because once it's solved, they can get whatever information they want.
Right. Yeah, I mean, not necessarily all the information they want. You still need to get
the small details of that person's intimate life. But even then, you'd still need somebody
to corroborate it to really confirm it. So it would have to be something that you can get
from somewhere else unless that person is also dead, which means you can't confirm it. So,
yeah, I guess it doesn't matter. But these childhood cases, they're stronger in the sense that they're
coming from a child. And some of these are documented really well. Not all of them. Yeah, and it
would be very abrupt and very discerning. I don't know which word I'm trying to use. If
your kid just starts talking about a previous life. It would be. And can name all these things.
An art culture. Yeah. It would be startling. To be like, whoa. What do I do? Like, is this,
are you scared? Like, what's going on? Like, are you, is this bad? What's going, you know?
Yeah. But it would be interesting. Like I was talking about it with my wife about the episode
and I was talking about how I was talking about, I was talking about to her, how we were talking
about the birthmarks and how Sawyer has one and stuff. She's like, and then I was telling
her a little bit about like, you know, the cases that we were talking about and how. A lot of
these kids may have died horribly, or not the kids, but their previous lives may have had
some kind of trauma in their death, obviously. But instead of dying peacefully in their sleep,
she's like, I don't want that to happen. I don't want him to get hurt. I was like... No, I understand.
That's a understandable viewpoint for sure. No one would wish for that. But yeah, it's
a previous life. if your kid's not freaking out or scared. Obviously some of these cases
would be hard because they have phobias. I wanna say I remember, but I don't recall off the
top of my head. But I wonder if...
some of the birthmarks match up to injuries sustained before the victim or before the previous
personality died. Yeah, I think we talked about that a little bit. I think that was the case
in a couple of these, but I can't recall off the top of my head right now. Yeah, I think
there was one where they had, one of the birthmarks was from a previous injury, but then they had
died not too long after. Right. But that. Injury was very like it was like a it was like a big
injury on their body somewhere And it stuck with him and that was the birthmark even though
it wasn't like what killed them, right? Right? Yeah, I do remember you were talking you were
telling that I think it was yesterday maybe even the first time and so that's interesting
too because that you know Some of them don't have to be from like a tragic death, which
is at least comfort. Yeah Yeah. Anyway. Sawyer's is a heart shape, so maybe it's just they used
ash. It was an experimental birthmark. Not a traumatic birthmark. Right. From an injury.
Right. Somebody just drew a heart on him, you know. Which is comforting. That's more comforting.
Yeah. Somebody loved him his previous life. That's great.
going on here. One way that Sugis' case is different from most of the others is that a written record
of his statements was made before his previous personality was identified. Say that one more
time, sorry. They have a written record of the statements from before they went and solved
the case, like before they identified who he was talking about. Right, okay. So having that
beforehand documented makes it, is better proof that you are actually making these statements
blind. Andrew making the connection based on the statements instead of the statements being
given afterwards. So then if the statements are verified later, and in his case they are,
then that makes them a lot more. Persuasive. Yeah, for sure.
The cases with written records make up only a small percentage, but this is hardly surprising.
In the same family cases, making a written record of the previous personality has been before
the previous personality has been identified is hardly possible, right? Like, if it's a
family case, like, as soon as the kid starts making statements and you connect it to your
family member, it's not like you, they're You can't write it down because you already know
it's your family member. Sure. Yeah. So, but in, in the cases where it's someone that you
don't know, then having a written record before you can even identify who that person is, makes
it a stronger case. Yeah. Especially if it's somebody who's a significant, you know, distance
from them. That makes it even stronger. Yeah. These cases are usually ones in which families
are trying to satisfy themselves that a child is the rebirth of a specific previous personality,
but they're not particularly interested in establishing proof for others to see. They might remember
what the child said and may discuss it with others, but they usually don't write down the
statements. A number of cases in our research with written records, 33 at last count, seems
minute compared to the number of cases over. Collecting 33 cases in which written records
document accurate statements that a child made about a past life is noteworthy For sure. However,
regardless of how many other cases without written records have been found and we can review a
couple more of them Sweet You got one? Is it the next one? It's queued up? Next case. So
this is the case of Kumkum Verma. Kumkum Verma, a girl in India, began talking about a previous
life at the age of three and a half. She said that she had lived in Darbhanga, a city of
200,000 people that was 25 miles away from her village. And that Urdu Bazaar. was the name
of the section of the city where she had been. Her father, an educated man who was a landowner,
homeopathic physician, and author, did not know anyone in Urdu Bazaar, a commercial district
where artisans, craftsmen, and other small businesses lived. Kumkum asked her family to call her
Sunri, which means beautiful, and made many statements about the previous life. Her aunt
made notes of some of them six months before anyone tried to identify the previous personality.
Dr. Stevenson, who met Kumkum's family when she was nine, obtained an English translation
of extracts of the notes, but he was unable to get the complete notebook. But it had been
lost after being loaned to someone. The extracts listed 18 statements that Kumkum made. that
all proved to be correct for the previous personality, including the name of Urdu Bazar, her son's
name, the fact that she worked with a hammer, her grandson's name, the name of the town where
her father lived, the location of his home near Mango Orchards, the presence of a pond at her
house. She had correctly stated that she had an iron safe at her house, a sword hanging
near her and a snake near the safe to which she fed milk.
I was just going to say the who loans out a notepad full of. They said they loaned it to
somebody. Maybe someone was interested in the case. Never got it back. Yeah. Seems weird
to do, but OK. Yeah. They only got a few statements out of it. Right. How many do they say they're
18 or something? Yeah, I think this is 18. Yeah, 18 statements. Kumkum's father eventually talked
about her statements to a friend who lived in Darbango. That friend had an employee from
Urdu Bazaar section of the city who was able to identify the previous personality. Sunri,
or Sundari, mystery, whom Kumkum seemed to be describing, the previous personality's family
belonged to a relatively low artisan class. and would have been quite unlikely to have
social contact with the family with the education and social status of Dr. Verma's family. Hmm.
In fact, they had little contact even after the case developed. The previous personality's
grandson visited Kumkum's family twice. Dr. Verma went to Urdu Bazaar once to meet the
previous personality's family, but he never allowed Kumkum to go. Apparently he was not
proud of his daughter's claim to have been a blacksmith's wife in her previous life. One
interesting note is that Kumkum said that she died during an altercation and that her stepson's
wife had poisoned her. Wow. That's how she died? Yeah.
was preparing to be a witness for her son in his suit against her second husband. involving
the son's belief that his stepfather had misappropriated his deceased father's money when she died.
Interesting so no autopsy was performed and KumKum statements that she was poisoned remained
Unverified also of note KumKum spoke with an accent different from that of her family the
family associated it with the lower classes of darbanga and Reported that in addition KumKum
used some unusual expressions that seemed related to the lower classes as well Did you say? They
had that much of a difference of slang. Yeah. What time is it? Did it say anything about
when this was? Because it seems like. Well, Stevenson investigated it. So it had to be.
And she was still young. Yeah. OK. So maybe, I mean, he did this for 40 years. So who knows
what year he actually did the study.
Okay. Yeah, it doesn't give a year. Yeah. I didn't hear one. I'm just curious. But yeah,
so this is now a case where the family is not interested in associating her with the previous
life because they see the class difference. That's so funny. And so the likelihood of a
scam goes way down because they don't even want any part of it really. They just wanted to
know for their own sake, you know, but they weren't interested in lowering their status
at all. Mm hmm. That seems like the M ref is just loud. It seems like they have put a lot
of emphasis on their classes. Yeah. I mean, they're one of those. Which country was that?
India. India, yeah. There's definitely class systems going on there. It's a different way
of organizing society. It feels weird to us out here, but we kind of have it too. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean... We got different groups of people who would try not to associate with each other.
That's true. Yeah. Some that see themselves as higher than everyone else. That's true.
But anyway, that's an interesting wrinkle, because that kind of changes the motivation of it being
a scam. Yeah, so he did, who did the investigation? Was it Ian Stevenson that put them together
or was it something else? No, he got there after she was like nine. Okay, so this is, but it's
still something that they were willing to talk about. Yeah.
Yeah, they were willing to participate in the research for the sake of science, you know?
Sure. That's good, I'm hoping we're going to do that.
case of Ratanga Wangsamba.
Ratana was born in Bangkok in 1964. Her adoptive father meditated once a week at the Wat Mahathat,
a large temple with more than 300 monks on the other side of Bangkok from the family's home.
Ratana began asking to go there. When she was 14 months old, her father took her for the
first time. When they were there, she seemed to show knowledge of the buildings. After they
returned home, her father asked her where she had been before this life. She began talking
about her previous life at that point and eventually told the following story. She had been a Chinese
woman named Kim Lan and had stayed at the temple where she lived in a green hut with a nun named
Mei Chan. After eventually being driven from there, she moved to the district of Bangkok
named Banglampu. She said that she had only one daughter who lived in Kinlan's hometown,
which she named Kinlan.
Oh, in the hometown, which she named, and Kin-Long had returned there at the end of her life where
she died after surgery. Ratana expressed displeasure that after she died as Kin-Long, her ashes
had been scattered rather than buried.
Can you imagine hearing that? You get word later on that your family member got reborn and they're
like, yo, you spread my ashes wrong. Yeah, that would be tough. That's not what I asked for.
I told Rachel they have these things where you can put yourself into a tree. They like mold
you into the roots of the tree and they bury you with the tree. And then your body decomposes
into the nutrients of the tree. Right. It's interesting. That's cool. Interesting way to
go. Yeah. Become food for something. I told Rachel I'd be down for that. Yeah, that would
be cool. That way you know the energy of your body is being used by something else to live.
And then she does the wrong type of tree and then you get reborn. And you're like, tell
her. Tell her. I said oak.
She's like, yeah, old lady, she's getting told by some child, I told you, I told you before
I died, I wanted an oak tree. I want a pine tree. That's
what I want. Ritana's father was not familiar with a woman named Kim Lon, and he apparently
made no immediate attempts to verify Ritana's statements. When Ratana was two years old,
he again took her to the temple. When they passed a large group of nuns there, Ratana appeared
to recognize one and called out, Mei Chan to her. The nun did not respond to her, but Ratana
told her father that she had lived with that nun in her previous life. Ratana's father looked
to the temple, returned to the temple a few days later, and spoke with the nun. Her name
was Mei Chi Chan. Mae Chi is an honorific for nuns in Thailand, meaning mother nun, but some
people, including the previous personality, called her Mae Chan. She confirmed that almost
all of the statements that Ratana had made, including all the ones listed in this summary,
were correct for the life of Kim Lam Preyoon Supamathir, who died one and a half years before
Ratana was born. Kim-Lan's daughter also confirmed Ratana's statements, including even the matter
of her remains. Kim-Lan had wanted her ashes to be buried under her bow tree at the temple
complex, but when her daughter tried to honor her wish, the roots of the tree were so extensive
that she ended up spreading the ashes rather than burying them.
getting reprimanded for that. I know, that's kind of funny.
All right, we're gonna hit a break real quick and we'll be back.
So close to me
Used to be.
and I'll see you next time.
We are back with a little bit more, some reincarnation.
This song's called Used To Be, and we're talking about people who used to be other people. Man,
I feel like you plan this every time, but I don't think you do. All right, next case. You
ready? Yeah. OK, this is the case of. This is a good one? I don't know. Well, I'll remember
it as I read it. OK. Gamini Jayasena was born in Colombo, Sri Lanka in 1962. And he began
talking about a previous life before he was two years old. Over time he gave details that
included the following. He had another mother who was bigger than his present one. Someone
named Nimal had bitten him. He had a school bag that was still sitting on a chair. He had
a toy elephant that he had bathed in a well. He had once fallen into a well. Someone named
Charlie Uncle had a car that he used to drive the subject to school, and Charlie Uncle's
family also had a red motorcycle. Since Gimini did not give a name or place a last name, the
case might well have remained unsolved if his family had not taken a bus trip when he was
two and a half years old. When the bus stopped briefly at a place called Nita Mubwe. Gamini
told the person next to him, a family friend, that this had been his home. That person relayed
the information to Gamini's parents, who in turn told his mother's cousin, a well-known
monk. The monk decided to look into the matter, and he took the family back to Nita Mubwe.
They got out of the car at the place where Gamini had made his comment and began walking towards
the four horses that were down the road. Gamini said that his mother lived there, but the monk
decided not to proceed further. He apparently was unsure if this was the correct place and
was concerned that he would likely be entering the home of a Christian family. Kamini's family
thought he was probably remembering the life of a Christian because he knelt during prayer
with his trunk erect rather than with his butt resting on the heels in typical Buddhist position.
And because he once asked his mother to hang up a wooden cross he had found, Kamini was
The family returned to Colombo, but some Nétambue villagers had recognized the monk during the
family's stop and told a family living at the place indicated by Gamini. This family, which
was in fact a Christian family, had lost a son two years before Gamini was born. The boy,
named Palitha, had died after a short illness. Just before getting sick, he had returned from
school on vacation and left his school bag on a chair instead of putting it up in the cupboard
as he usually did. While announcing that he would not be going to school again, he had
a younger brother named Nimal who had once bitten him. Politha's parents visited the monk. They
gave the monk a picture of Politha that Kamini subsequently appeared to recognize. Following
that, Gamini's family returned to Nittamoe to meet Polita's parents. There, Gamini was judged
to recognize a number of people and places. When he was taken to Polita's school in the
boarding house where Polita had stayed while attending school, he made additional recognitions
and statements about Polita's life. All of Gamini's statements listed here proved to be correct
for Polita.
Sena Wirratne, Politha's uncle, owned a car but did not drive Politha to school. No possible
connection could be found between Gamini's family in Colombo and Politha's family in Nintamuwe,
some 20 miles away. Yeah, that's another good one. Yeah, and another one where, you know,
the previous life is... different in a way that, you know, they're less prone to interact, you
know? Yeah. They're a different religion, they live in a different area. Right. Yeah. I mean,
not impossible, but... Right, but if you're gonna make it up, you probably wouldn't go
for that. Yeah. Right.
yet another one. Does he have any thoughts on that one? Yeah, I didn't write down or take
notes on his thoughts on all of these, but. Okay. Just the ones that stood out?
I just wanted to share a number of the cases so we can, you know, do our own analysis. And
really because like it just hearing case after case, it does something, you know? Yeah, you
start putting the connections a little bit and you start understanding. Well, just hearing
a number is different than like actually hearing a whole bunch of the actual cases. Like actually
hearing a bunch of them starts to... Maybe not sound as crazy. Let's hear one more if you
got one. OK. So this is Kendra Carter, a girl who lives in Florida, was four and a half years
old when she went to her first swimming lesson with a coach named Jinder. Oh, this one's kind
of messed up. Yeah, it's kind of sad. All right, warning for anybody. So yeah. first swimming
lesson with a coach named Ginger. Kendra Carter. She immediately jumped into Ginger's lap and
acted very lovingly towards her. When Ginger had to cancel a lesson three weeks later, Kendra
sobbed uncontrollably. When she was able to have a lesson soon after, she was very happy
and began talking about Ginger all the time. A few weeks later, Kendra began saying that
Ginger's baby had died. and that Ginger had been sick and had pushed her baby out. When
her mother asked her how she knew these things, Kendra replied, I'm the baby that was in her
tummy. At that point, Kendra had only seen Ginger at their lessons and her mother knew that the
two of them had never been alone. Kendra described an abortion saying that Ginger had allowed
a bad man to pull her out and that she tried to hang on, but she couldn't. She described
being scared in a dark and cold place afterwards. Kendra's mother eventually found out from Ginger
that she had in fact had an abortion nine years before Kendra was born, when she was unmarried,
sick, and dealing with anorexia nervosa. Kendra began saying that she would die because Ginger
had been unable to deliver her. She said, I have to die and I won't come back this time.
This fear of dying became so severe that Kendra's mother took her to a therapist who suggested
a ceremony in which Kendra would be born to Ginger. Following this her fear of dying seemed
to resolve. Even though Ginger was often cool towards her, Kendra began being very bubbly
and happy when she was with Ginger, but quiet and withdrawn otherwise. Her mother allowed
her to spend more and more time with Ginger. Even actually, or eventually, Ginger set up
a room for Kendra in her home, and Kendra spent three nights a week there. Kendra's absences
were hard for her mother, but she permitted them. because Kendra's wish to be with Ginger
was so intense. Unfortunately, Ginger and Kendra's mother eventually had a falling out, and Ginger
said that she did not want to see Kendra anymore. Following this, Kendra did not speak for four
and a half months. She showed no interest in activities, ate little, slept a lot. At the
end of that time, Ginger met with Kendra for two hours. During this meeting, Kendra talked
again for the first time when she told Ginger that she loved her. Ginger began calling Kendra
again, but Kendra did not feel comfortable going to her home. Kendra slowly began talking more
and began participating in more activities. Kendra's mother found all of this was very
troubling. Her daughter's struggle with the situation upset her, and the possibility of
reincarnation troubled her as well. She attended a conservative Christian church and she felt
that she was committing a sin by merely buying a book on reincarnation during Kendra's troubles.
She decided that perhaps Kendra's spirit had been looking for another body after Ginger's
abortion, but she did not accept the idea that reincarnation is a process that normally occurs.
This case presents us with a number of perplexing questions. Why would a four-year-old girl think
that she had been involved in an abortion? What caused her to develop the idea of reincarnation
when she was being raised by a mother who could not even consider the possibility? And why
did she become so emotionally attached to a woman who was often not very warm toward her?
Yeah, that's... That is sad. Yeah. That must have been so crazy as a parent to go through.
I couldn't imagine that. Yeah. That would be hard. Right? You want the child to be happy.
The fact that they go so far as to not talk for 4 and 1 1.5 months, that's insane. Yeah.
And then you got to think about Ginger, the swim coach, or whatever. How hard that must
be for her. Dealing with going through the abortion and all that, and then having to face what
is the reincarnated soul. Right. your aborted daughter. There must be like super intense
feelings of, you know.
You know, must just feel super tragic. There's probably like guilt and there's probably maybe
happiness too. Yeah, she probably, I mean, that's probably why she was okay with it. She got
to, you know, be with the idea of her, the soul of her baby that she may or may not have wanted
to keep at the time, you know? Yeah. Years later, of course, too, when you've had all this time
to think about it. You know, and move on and like, you know, live your life and then it
comes back up. But like going so far as to like sleep over there multiple nights a week. Like,
can you imagine that? It's like, oh, what? Oh, yeah, that'd be very tough. Um, so this is
where he's kind of commenting on Like the emotions Um, and he goes into another case to talk about
it Um, sukla gupta in india is another subject who showed great emotion She was less than
two years old when she began the habit of cradling a block of wood or a pillow and calling it
minu She said that minu was her daughter that during the next three years she gradually spoke
more about the previous life. She gave a number of details including the name of a section
of a village 11 miles away. A woman there who had an infant daughter named Minu had died
six years before Tsukulu was born and was identified as the previous personality. When Tsukulu was
five years old, her family went to meet the family of the previous personality. She cried
when she met Minu. then 11 years old, and she appeared affectionate and maternal towards
her. At one point, the previous personality's cousins tested Tsukula by telling her falsely
that Minu was sick with a high fever. Tsukula began to weep, and she could not be comforted
for some time. In another instance, Minu was actually sick, and when Tsukula learned the
news, she began crying and demanding to be taken to her. She remained agitated until the next
day when her family took her to see Minu, who had improved by then. Sukla also appeared deferential
toward the previous personality's husband. After they met, she longed for him to visit her.
He did so weekly for about a year until his second wife complained about the visits, and
he began to visit less frequently. Sukla talked less about the previous life after the age
of seven. and she also gradually lost her feelings of attachment towards the previous personality's
husband and Minu. By the time she was an early teen, she complained that they were pestering
her when they came to visit. The feelings of the subjects do not always diminish over time.
And at least one subject, Mong Ai Kiao in Myanmar, grew up to marry the widow of the previous
personality. Oh wow. The longevity of the feelings often depends on how much contact the families
have after they initially meet. Many of the families become quite friendly with frequent
visits at least initially, but some are resistant. This resistance may relate to the previous
family's occasional concern that the subject's family is looking for gifts from them or feeling
that the subject's family, that the child may become too attached to the previous one. Significant
socio-economic distance between the families can also produce awkwardness at times.
Yeah, that's a.
Yeah, ending up marrying the previous personality's husband, that's kind of weird.
That is weird. That happened in this case? I thought that was just a... No, that was just
another one he talked about. Oh, okay, okay. No, for Sucla, she... wanted to keep visiting
with the previous personality's husband. But then eventually faded their feelings or whatever.
Yeah. And by the time she was a teenager, she was complaining about them visiting, so...
Because they kept visiting even though? Right. Even though she didn't remember anymore and
she's like, Leave me alone. Yeah. I don't remember what you're talking about anymore. I don't
have those same feelings. Mm-hmm. But it would probably be hard for them, because they got
a glimpse of their person they loved. Yeah. So this is in a section called Unacquired Tastes.
Dr. Stevenson, with some recent additions by Dr. Kiel, has collected two dozen cases of
Burmese children who reported being Japanese soldiers killed in Burma during World War II.
None of the children has given enough specific details to identify a previous personality
in Japan, but the children's behavior has often been quite distinctive, including food preferences.
A number of these children complain about the spicy Burmese food and prefer sweet foods and
raw or partially cooked fish. In the case of Ma Tin Ong Mio, Born in 1953 is a good example.
During her pregnancy, her mother dreamed three times that a Japanese army cook, whom she had
known during the Japanese army's occupation of Burma, followed her and said that he wanted
to come and stay with her family. When Ma Ten-Ong Myo was four years old, she was walking with
her father one day when she became very upset as an airplane flew overhead. After that, she
cried every time a plane flew over, a behavior she showed for a number of years. She said
that she was afraid that the planes would shoot her. Around that time, she began saying that
she longed for Japan, and she gradually told the story of being a Japanese soldier who was
killed by machine gun fire from a low-flying plane while he was stationed in her family's
village. In addition to her phobia of planes and her longing for Japan, Maten-ong-myo complained
of the hot Burmese climate. She also did not like spicy Burmese food and preferred to eat
sweet foods and she liked fish, particularly half-cooked fish, as a young child. She used
words that her family could not understand, but since no one around her knew Japanese,
we have no way of determining if these might have been Japanese words.
She did not show one feature that the children in a number of these Burmese Japanese cases
have shown, which is a great reluctance to wear traditional Burmese attire. Burmese men and
women generally wear... long-ies, a garment similar to an ankle-length skirt with shirts
or blouses, but a number of children who have insisted on wearing trousers instead, as Japanese
men would do. But these cases of Burmese children who claim to remember lives as Japanese soldiers
are similar to Unsolved Case of Carl Edon, a British boy who seemed to remember the life
of a German pilot in World War II. Born in 1972, he began saying, I crashed a plane through
a window. When he was two years old, he gradually added details about having been on a bombing
mission over England when he crashed. When he became able to draw, he drew swastikas and
eagles. of a cockpit. He also demonstrated the Nazi salute and the goose steps march of German
soldiers. He said that he wanted to live in Germany. He, unlike the other members of his
family, liked to eat sausages and thick soups. I gave birth to a Nazi. Oh my god. Can you
imagine that? What that must be like. But. Again, they probably forgot all that stuff by the
time they were six or seven. Yeah. Still unsettling.
Yeah, the Japanese soldiers in Burma is an interesting one too. The Japanese had
occupied Burma during the war.
I don't know much about that. I was gonna say, I don't know. Being of the war, if you want
more info. The Pacific Theater of World War II. Yeah, I don't know what that one. Yeah,
yeah.
Interesting. All right.
We got another case here. All right. Let's go for it. So this is the case of Aaron Jackson.
Oh, that was an easy name. Yeah, I know, right? An American whose Protestant parents did not
believe in reincarnation before the case developed. It's a strong example of whatever section we're
in right now. Oh, which is like different sexes. OK. Um... When she was three years old, she
started, she talked about having been a boy, described a life with a stepmother and a brother,
James, who only liked to wear black. She did not give any direct details of when that life
took place, but she appeared to be remembering a life in the distant past because she would
say things like, it was a lot better when there were horses. These cars are awful. They've
just ruined everything. Erin sometimes said that she wished she were a boy. She insisted
on dressing as one when she was little. This extended to bathing suits, when Erin would
only wear the bottom of a two-piece suit. Her mother learned to buy one-piece suits. As Erin
grew older, she would wear a dress, perhaps three times a year, and then only if it did
not have lace or ruffles. Which is interesting, yeah, the cross-sex cases, because, yeah, that
could very well explain a legitimate mechanism. That's a terrible word to use. But a mechanism
for some cases, especially ones that have existed since childhood. Right. Yeah. And some of that
might fade as you get older. Some of those memories and stuff like they always talk about. But
some of your preferences stay the same. Yeah. We can consider several possibilities to explain
cross-gender behavior in our cases. One is that cross-gender behavior in the past life claims
only occurred together by coincidence. Arguing against that are dozens of cases we have that
involve the combination of a gender identity Disorder which is a rare disorder with claims
of having been a member of the opposite sex With so many cases we must conclude that the
two are connected We might like to suppose that the cross-gender behavior displayed by earlier
cases came because their parents thought they were the rebirths of members of the opposite
sex, but we cannot do so in Erin's case. Her parents did not expect her to be the rebirth
of anyone, and her talk of having been a boy, which occurred in combination with her boyish
behavior obviously came as a complete surprise. We might decide that her wish to be a boy happened
first and that she then added a fantasy of having been a boy in a previous life. Such for these
cases that the gender identity disorder leads to the past life claims does not apply to Chloe's
case because his parents thought that he might be his grandmother reborn before he ever had
a gender identity. These cases put us in a bind when we look for a normal explanation. In Aaron's
case, we might like to blame the cross-gender wishes for producing the past life beliefs,
while in Chloe's case, we would be more inclined to blame the past life beliefs for producing
the cross-gender behavior. Yeah.
Yeah, and it seems like it's probably in some of these cross gender cases, some are more
strongly, like, like more pronounced. Yeah. Like the fact that they have like preferences
that they want and not just remembering, oh, I was a girl. And like, you know, I did this,
this and this, but like not still like preferring to. Continue doing the things you did in your
previous life. Mm-hmm. Not that it wouldn't make sense, but yeah That's interesting. The
next one is a twins one. I wonder if that twins one you asked about at the beginning, the first
episode. We'll see. Oh, maybe. I think he does, yeah, maybe a couple cases, yeah, of twins
here. OK. So. Subjects who are identical twins offer a unique contribution to our understanding
of the behavior of these children. In chapter 4, I discussed Endika Ishwara, an identical
twin in Sri Lanka who described the life of a boy who had died of encephalitis at the age
of 10. Endika's twin brother, Kaksapa, also claimed to remember previous life. He spoke
of it before Ndika did, claiming that the police had shot him. Judging from other statements
he made, his family decided he was talking about the life of an insurgent who died during an
uprising in Sri Lanka in 1971. The family laughed at these claims and he soon stopped making
them. The twins showed some differences in temperament and behavior. Indica, who remembered the life
of a schoolboy, tended to be gentle and calm, while Kachapa... who recalled the life of an
insurgent, presented himself as being tough and tended to be hostile and aggressive. Indika
was religious as a young child, as his previous personality was, but Kakshappa was not. Indika
was more intelligent and was interested and successful in his schoolwork, while Kakshappa
did poorly in school. Indica's features even matched those of the boy whose life he appeared
to remember. The parents noticed that the difference in their personalities lessened as they grew
older. How do we explain the differences that they showed initially? Their statements about
the previous life seemed to have come too late to cause their parents to interact with them
in a matter that would produce the differences. As some twins develop, they show contrasting
interests that emphasize each child's uniqueness. In this case, the way that the differences
began early and lessened over time is more consistent with an inborn factor than with an environmental
one. But we cannot use this normal explanation of inborn differences since the boys are identical
twins. If the differences that were present initially were due to carryover from previous
lives, then the fact that they lessen suggests that either the effect from their previous
lives naturally dissipated over time, or that the experience in the current life gradually
had a larger and larger effect on the boys. Yeah, I wonder if it's possible to, like, if
you were one soul and you wanted to reincarnate and... You could split your spirit into two
bodies and you can have like be a twin. Yeah. That's interesting. So it's really like the
same person, but able to be experienced. So then it would be environmental factors that
created the changes later. But the. So like you would be basically the same soul, but as
time went on and you forgot your previous. And maybe that explains the cases of twins who
like describe themselves as like being the half of a whole with their sibling. Not all twins
are that close though. Which is interesting too. Yeah, we need to, somebody needs to study
that. I'm sure somebody did. I wonder if, let's say, in the process of reincarnation, you inhabit
the fetus, if the fetus splits into twins, because that's where identical twins are, right? Yeah.
It's when the egg splits during the division. If the soul was already in there and then it
split. Like would that be that case? Yeah, or would one of them be like up and available
for a new spirit to claim or move into? Yeah, so it's like when you have fraternal twins
that are just two eggs that both get. Isn't that how it is?
Yeah, when there's two different eggs. Yeah. We have fraternal twins. And that would be
maybe because there's two vessels, there's two souls, two different souls going in there and
they have completely different past lives from strangers to each other. They just... Souls
are strangers to each other. They just occupied the same wound to be born, but they're from
different pasts. Yeah, their past lives would be strangers to each other, but obviously as
they grow up. Yeah.
Interesting that. Alright, here's another twin case. Okay. Gillian and Jennifer Pollock, born
in Hexham, Northumberland, England in 1958, form another interesting case involving identical
twins. Their older sister Joanna and Jacqueline, these are the ones. Yeah, I think that, yeah.
Yeah. So Gillian and Jennifer are the twins, okay. Their older sisters, Joanna and Jacqueline,
had been killed a year and a half before the twins were born, when a car struck them as
they were walking to church. When their mother became pregnant with Jillian and Jennifer,
their father, who, unlike their mother, believed in reincarnation, stated confidently that the
two deceased girls were going to be reborn as twins.
Yeah, obstetrician's statement that only one fetus was present. When the twins were born,
their parents noticed two birthmarks on Jennifer, the younger twin, that matched two marks that
had been present on Jacqueline, the younger of the deceased girls. One matched a birthmark
that Jacqueline had on her hip, and the other matched a scar that Jacqueline had received
when she fell on a bucket and cut her forehead. Jillian was the older of the twins and had
no birthmarks. The family moved from Hexham when the twins were 9 months old. When they
were 3 years old, they began talking about their older sisters, and in particular, their mother
overheard them several times discussing details of the accident in which their sisters were
killed. In addition, their parents had packed toys of the other girls away when they were
killed, but later got two dolls out. When the twins saw them, Jillian claimed the doll that
had belonged to Joanna, the oldest sister, while Jennifer claimed the Jacqueline's doll. They
said that Santa Claus had given them the dolls and that their older sisters, in fact, had
received them as Christmas presents. In addition, when Jillian saw a to- toy clothes ringer that
had been a Christmas gift to Joanna's, she said, look, there's my toy ringer and stated that
Santa Claus had given it to her. One day, Jillian pointed out or pointed to the birthmark on
Jennifer's forehead and said, that's the mark Jennifer got when she fell on a bucket. When
Jennifer had not had an accident producing the mark, Jacqueline had indeed fallen on a bucket
receiving an injury. that required stitches and produced permanent scar. At another time
when their father was painting, he wore a smock their mother had previously used when the girls
were alive. Jennifer saw it and asked, why were you wearing mommy's coat? When her father asked
her how she knew that it was her mother's, she correctly responded that her mother had worn
the smock when delivering milk. When the twins were four years old, the family returned to
Hexham for the first time to visit for the day. As the family walked along a road near a park
where the girls had frequently played, the twins said that they wanted to go across the road
to the swings in the park. Neither the swings nor even the park was visible when they said
this. In addition to Jennifer's birthmarks and the twins' statements, the girls also demonstrated
behaviors consistent with the lives of their older sisters. Jillian tended to Mother Jennifer,
who accepted her leadership, just as Joanna, who had tended to Mother Jacqueline, who was
five years younger. In addition, when the twins learned to write around the age of four and
a half, Jillian immediately held a pencil between her thumb and fingers, but Jennifer held a
pencil upright in her fist. Jacqueline who was six years old when she was killed had Persisted
in holding her pencil this way despite her teachers best efforts to get her to hold it properly
Jennifer eventually learned to The correct grip when she was seven, but she lapsed into using
the previous one at times even as an adult Since she and Julian were identical twins in the
same environment this difference is puzzling The obvious weakness of this case is the father's
conviction before the twins were even born that they were a reincarnation of their sisters.
It may have increased the connections he thought he observed and even the twins' propensity
to talk about the sisters, though it clearly did not cause Jennifer's birthmarks. The twins
stopped making any statements about their sisters at the age of seven. The mother who had not
believed in reincarnation initially by then was convinced by their statements, birthmarks,
and behaviors that they were their deceased sisters reborn, sharing the belief that their
father had voiced while they were still in the womb. It's like what they call the dreams.
The announcing dreams. It's like an announcing dream, but out loud. Yeah. Just announced it.
Just an announcing statement. Yeah.
So he analyzes this one a little bit and then maybe we can go through that. Explaining the
behavioral differences in our identical twin subjects is a significant challenge. The two
cases I presented show that not only do the identical twin subjects show these differences
but the differences are quite consistent with the previous lives the children describe. The
cases of twins bring up the issue of what contributes to personality. In general, scientists have
assumed that individual differences of any kind are due to genetic or environmental factors.
In child development, the degree of influence of genetics versus environment is controversial.
But temperament is one useful concept of the biological factors that contribute to personality
differences. Temperament refers to how individuals perform behaviors as opposed to why they perform
them, which is motivation or what they perform, which is the ability. Biological factors like
temperament interact with environmental factors to produce the various personality differences
in individuals. The temperament shown early in childhood tends to be stable. But as the
child ages, temperament characteristics can change. When we consider identical twins, we're
dealing with two individuals who have the same genetic makeup. As expected, identical twins
show a great deal of similarity in temperament. Much more so than fraternal twins. But the
similarity is not 100%, since temperament is thought to be biological dimension. the differences
in identical twins becomes difficult to explain because their genetic makeup is identical.
To explain personality differences in identical twins, we must consider environmental factors.
Most twins have the same general environment, but perhaps parents respond uniquely to each
twin and produce differences that way. In addition, these cases suggest that, along with hereditary
heredity and environment, we should consider the idea that differences may be caused by
what the consciousness brings to a new life.
Yeah, that's a good analysis of that. Yeah, the twins ones is fascinating. I like talking
about the twins ones. Yeah, because I mean, he is right. When you have identical twins
and you raise them in the same household, maybe you interact with each of them on aggregate
a little bit differently. But for the most part, they pretty much have a similar life, right?
Like they have similar environmental factors. So big personality differences can be weird
to try and explain. Yeah. I mean, you just got to really assume like the personality, like
it's a different person. Just there are genetically the same, but that gives more credence to the
fact that there is a soul and that there, you know, there is this thing that's outside of
the genetics of it all. has some credence in this, whether it's reincarnation or just the
soul, just being able to admit that there's a soul outside of just the physical brain.
That's a big step in all this, for sure. Yeah, especially for skeptics. Being willing to consider
that as a scientist is not necessarily what they're best at. Right. It depends on the scientists,
not all of them. Yeah, we need more scientists though that are willing to be open-minded to
things that they cannot prove. I mean, this- And help, that could help their research. I
think there are plenty. I just think, uh, the culture of materialism and, uh, makes it hard
to, uh- like out yourself as that as a scientist, someone willing to look into the fringe things
that are not part of the scientific quote unquote accepted worldview. So it does take some courage
I think, but I think there are already plenty of scientists who do study stuff outside of
that. And as they claim is true, like you hear some people claim to like an argument with
Graham that like, dude, if we found some stuff like that, like, I will be so excited. Like,
I would want to put it out there. I feel like it's not. And I feel like for some people,
some scientists like this, like, this is clearly talking about a controversial subject, subject
that not everyone believes in. And he's just doing the research and putting it out there.
Maybe he believes later on, but I believe when he introduces the book, he wasn't really a
believer. He's not fully a believer of it already. I think he addresses it at the end of the book,
is what are his views on it all. But he tries to leave the book for you to decide for yourself.
While still giving his analysis of each case and stuff. It's cool to have so many cases
that he's able to analyze and cut and slice it in all these different ways. Like to zoom
in on twins, zoom in on birthmark cases. Right, and also bring up older cases with documentation,
right? He's been able to categorize it and like catalog it so that he can pull it and have
sections of certain types of reincarnation cases. Yeah. Yeah, this is definitely a good book.
We're gonna need a part four and five and six. We are.
Halfway, halfway. But I don't know how much. I think I highlighted more early than later.
Okay. So we'll see. down for part four though. I don't think this will be another secret history
in length. Right we could probably finish it with part four then. Yeah. Give me enough time
to we could probably you know especially with our new tools of reading and highlighting and
notating I'll be able to knock out a good section of secret history so we can go over that soon
too. Cool. The next part. So thanks for listening people. We'll be back with more next week.
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Or do you know anything about past life regression? We want to hear some stuff about that. If you've
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See you later. Adios. Love ya.